Technical questions - wheel build - rims

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Technical questions - wheel build - rims

Postby Anastasios » February 13th, 2017, 6:25 pm

Hi

I am looking for some technical specifications for the flo 40 and flo 60 carbon rims. More specific
1. How do you measure the ERD? Is this bed to bed (rim) or end of spoke to end of spoke including nipples as DT Swiss defines ERD? In addition the ERD submitted for the rims are the manufacturing or design values?

DT Swiss spoke calc:
If you do not have a DT Swiss spoke length calculation table, you can still calculate the rim diameter: All you need is two long spokes (ideally > 300 mm), 2 spoke nipples, Loctite, 1 pair of pliers and 1 meter rule. First, using the Loctite, screw the spoke nipples onto the spokes until the nipple is flush with the spoke thread. Then cut the bend off the spokes (ensuring that both spokes are exactly the same length). These two spokes now serve as measurement spokes: they are inserted into the rim on opposite sides to each other. Now all that needs to be done to calculate the inner diameter of the rim is subtract the spoke overhang from the overall length.

Please note: It is essential to conduct the measurement at several positions on the rim (and calculate an average if necessary) to exclude any production tolerance of the inner diameter of the rim.

2. As per nipple bed design apart from the sapim hexagonal nipples is it possible to use alternative types or brands? Any rim design limitations?

3. Since you are recommending nipple washers - which sapim type is recommended?

4. What is the drilled nipple hole diameter on the rims? Is it possible for sapim internal nipples to be used on the flo 40/60 carbon rims?

5. What is the % ratio on the drive non drive spoke tension for the 2x spoke lacing? Given the fact that on the non drive can go up to 130kg-f.

6. Do you supply a spoke length table for alternative hubs using CX Ray spokes?

Thanks
Anastasios
Anastasios
 
Posts: 4
Joined: February 13th, 2017, 5:58 pm

Re: Technical questions - wheel build - rims

Postby Chris Thornham » February 14th, 2017, 2:34 pm

Thanks for writing. I have replied your question below in bold text.

Anastasios wrote:Hi

I am looking for some technical specifications for the flo 40 and flo 60 carbon rims. More specific
1. How do you measure the ERD? Is this bed to bed (rim) or end of spoke to end of spoke including nipples as DT Swiss defines ERD? In addition the ERD submitted for the rims are the manufacturing or design values?

We measure ERD as follows. Make sure you measure your own ERD with the components you choose to build with.

Here's some info from the SheldonBrown.com site.

Effective Rim Diameter (ERD) is the diameter on which you want the ends of the spokes to lie. Most people prefer it near the end of the spoke nipple. If you want to measure your own rim (recommended, just to be sure), then follow these instructions:

Insert two old spokes into holes exactly opposite each other on the rim. Count holes to be sure.

Screw some nipples onto the spokes.

Pull them tight and measure dimension A in the figure (the diameter to the edge of the nipples, where the spokes dissapears into them). Do this at several spots around the rim and average the measurements.

Measure the length of a nipple (dimension B in the figure) and add it twice (once for each nipple).

The result is Effective Rim Diameter (ERD). Thus,
ERD = A + 2B.


DT Swiss spoke calc:
If you do not have a DT Swiss spoke length calculation table, you can still calculate the rim diameter: All you need is two long spokes (ideally > 300 mm), 2 spoke nipples, Loctite, 1 pair of pliers and 1 meter rule. First, using the Loctite, screw the spoke nipples onto the spokes until the nipple is flush with the spoke thread. Then cut the bend off the spokes (ensuring that both spokes are exactly the same length). These two spokes now serve as measurement spokes: they are inserted into the rim on opposite sides to each other. Now all that needs to be done to calculate the inner diameter of the rim is subtract the spoke overhang from the overall length.

Please note: It is essential to conduct the measurement at several positions on the rim (and calculate an average if necessary) to exclude any production tolerance of the inner diameter of the rim.

2. As per nipple bed design apart from the sapim hexagonal nipples is it possible to use alternative types or brands? Any rim design limitations?

I am not aware of any nipple limitations. You can use other brands.

3. Since you are recommending nipple washers - which sapim type is recommended?

I would recommend whatever washers work best with the spokes you are using. Check with you builder.

4. What is the drilled nipple hole diameter on the rims? Is it possible for sapim internal nipples to be used on the flo 40/60 carbon rims?

The nipple hole diameter is 4.3mm. Are you referring to Sapim's Polyax nipples?

5. What is the % ratio on the drive non drive spoke tension for the 2x spoke lacing? Given the fact that on the non drive can go up to 130kg-f.

The goal with drive to non drive spoke tensions is getting the dish right. I'd focus on not exceeding 130kg-f anywhere on the rim all while getting it perfectly dished. Again, you builder should be very comfortable with completing this.

6. Do you supply a spoke length table for alternative hubs using CX Ray spokes?

We do not. Once you builder selects their components, they should be able to easily calculate spoke length.

Thanks
Anastasios


I hope that helps,
Chris Thornham
FLO Cycling: http://www.flocycling.com
FLO Blog: http://bit.ly/b3Zlpq | Twitter: http://bit.ly/bOQ08x | Facebook: http://bit.ly/d8KDhI
Chris Thornham
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Posts: 564
Joined: March 2nd, 2012, 3:35 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Technical questions - wheel build - rims

Postby Anastasios » February 14th, 2017, 3:42 pm

Hi Chris

Thanks for your reply - I have some further questions on your reply. Please find below:

1. Related to the measurement more or less the two ways are similar. In any case due to the fact that some rims may be distorted (normal on mm measurements) could you please provide the manufacturing rim bed to bed distance? This will help to identify any discrepancies on the measured values. I presume that the ERD values submitted from Flo are given on Sapim hexagonal 12mm 14G nipples - correct ?

2&3. As per DT Swiss and Sapim (may provide both email replies) the rim manufacturer should provide the nipple specification as well as the respective washer type. This is due to the fact that this is directly related to the rim bed design and dimension. Are you able to provide some design details?

4. No I was referring to the internal nipples but not applicable since hole diameter too large. Actually a 4.3mm hole seems to big for a 12mm 14G nipple. As far as I know the diameter for this kind of nipple is about 3.25mm. This nipple hole diameter is closer to a shimano 3.96mm nipple. Since you mentioned polyax nipples - is this type compatible with the rim?

5. This is correct but in order to secure as Flo the basic quality of build some basic technical specifications should be published since rims are sold separately. It is not always the not good wheel builder the reason that wheels and rims fail. Especially when speeds exceed 30 km/h. Would you ride a motorbike at 40km/h knowing that wheels used are made from a very experienced wheel builder using the observed specs of the rims used? This is in addition to the fact that as far as I understand Flo Cycling presents engineering and research as moto.

In any case please find the above questions and comments from a person that is using well established brands in the market such as ENVE and Zipp and this time has chosen to try Flo wheels not because of the price.....

Congrats
Anastasios
Anastasios
 
Posts: 4
Joined: February 13th, 2017, 5:58 pm

Re: Technical questions - wheel build - rims

Postby Chris Thornham » February 15th, 2017, 11:22 am

Anastasios wrote:Hi Chris

Thanks for your reply - I have some further questions on your reply. Please find below:

1. Related to the measurement more or less the two ways are similar. In any case due to the fact that some rims may be distorted (normal on mm measurements) could you please provide the manufacturing rim bed to bed distance? This will help to identify any discrepancies on the measured values. I presume that the ERD values submitted from Flo are given on Sapim hexagonal 12mm 14G nipples - correct ?

2&3. As per DT Swiss and Sapim (may provide both email replies) the rim manufacturer should provide the nipple specification as well as the respective washer type. This is due to the fact that this is directly related to the rim bed design and dimension. Are you able to provide some design details?

4. No I was referring to the internal nipples but not applicable since hole diameter too large. Actually a 4.3mm hole seems to big for a 12mm 14G nipple. As far as I know the diameter for this kind of nipple is about 3.25mm. This nipple hole diameter is closer to a shimano 3.96mm nipple. Since you mentioned polyax nipples - is this type compatible with the rim?

5. This is correct but in order to secure as Flo the basic quality of build some basic technical specifications should be published since rims are sold separately. It is not always the not good wheel builder the reason that wheels and rims fail. Especially when speeds exceed 30 km/h. Would you ride a motorbike at 40km/h knowing that wheels used are made from a very experienced wheel builder using the observed specs of the rims used? This is in addition to the fact that as far as I understand Flo Cycling presents engineering and research as moto.

In any case please find the above questions and comments from a person that is using well established brands in the market such as ENVE and Zipp and this time has chosen to try Flo wheels not because of the price.....

Congrats
Anastasios


Anastasios,

I'm sorry but you are losing me here. We do not engineer "moto" wheels or rims. A few questions for you.

1. What are you using the wheels for?
2. Are you planning on putting the wheels on a motorized bike?
3. Who is building your wheels? If they are experienced, they simply need to measure ERD based on the components they are using and build the wheel. They should also be familiar with selecting components ie. spokes and washers.
Chris Thornham
FLO Cycling: http://www.flocycling.com
FLO Blog: http://bit.ly/b3Zlpq | Twitter: http://bit.ly/bOQ08x | Facebook: http://bit.ly/d8KDhI
Chris Thornham
Site Admin
 
Posts: 564
Joined: March 2nd, 2012, 3:35 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Technical questions - wheel build - rims

Postby Anastasios » February 15th, 2017, 3:05 pm

Hi Chris

1. Rims will be used to build wheels using DT Swiss 240S hubs (j bend or SP) and CX Ray or aerolite spokes.
2. Wheels will be used on a Cervelo S5 MY2016.
3. Wheels will be built from the local ENVE dealer in London. Dealer is asking all the details previously asked in order to give warranty on build. Actually they are quite happy to build this set since they haven't done any previous build with Flo rims.
4. Chris if possible it would be helpful to provide at least some information. Wheel builds is not about the experience but about the data.

Thanks
Anastasios
Anastasios
 
Posts: 4
Joined: February 13th, 2017, 5:58 pm

Re: Technical questions - wheel build - rims

Postby Chris Thornham » February 21st, 2017, 11:29 am

Chris Thornham wrote:
Anastasios wrote:Hi Chris

Thanks for your reply - I have some further questions on your reply. Please find below:

1. Related to the measurement more or less the two ways are similar. In any case due to the fact that some rims may be distorted (normal on mm measurements) could you please provide the manufacturing rim bed to bed distance? This will help to identify any discrepancies on the measured values. I presume that the ERD values submitted from Flo are given on Sapim hexagonal 12mm 14G nipples - correct ?

Bed to Bed Dimensions are as follows:

FLO 30: 577.4mm
FLO 45: 549.0mm
FLO 60: 514.5mm
FLO 90: 451.1mm

Yes we use the Sapim Hexagonal 12mm 14G Brass nipples.


2&3. As per DT Swiss and Sapim (may provide both email replies) the rim manufacturer should provide the nipple specification as well as the respective washer type. This is due to the fact that this is directly related to the rim bed design and dimension. Are you able to provide some design details?

We recommend Sapim Hexagonal 12mm 14G Brass nipples, and Sapim Oval Washers.

4. No I was referring to the internal nipples but not applicable since hole diameter too large. Actually a 4.3mm hole seems to big for a 12mm 14G nipple. As far as I know the diameter for this kind of nipple is about 3.25mm. This nipple hole diameter is closer to a shimano 3.96mm nipple. Since you mentioned polyax nipples - is this type compatible with the rim?

We recommend Sapim Hexagonal 12mm 14G Brass nipples, and Sapim Oval Washers.

5. This is correct but in order to secure as Flo the basic quality of build some basic technical specifications should be published since rims are sold separately. It is not always the not good wheel builder the reason that wheels and rims fail. Especially when speeds exceed 30 km/h. Would you ride a motorbike at 40km/h knowing that wheels used are made from a very experienced wheel builder using the observed specs of the rims used? This is in addition to the fact that as far as I understand Flo Cycling presents engineering and research as moto.

In any case please find the above questions and comments from a person that is using well established brands in the market such as ENVE and Zipp and this time has chosen to try Flo wheels not because of the price.....

Congrats
Anastasios


Anastasios,

I'm sorry but you are losing me here. We do not engineer "moto" wheels or rims. A few questions for you.

1. What are you using the wheels for?
2. Are you planning on putting the wheels on a motorized bike?
3. Who is building your wheels? If they are experienced, they simply need to measure ERD based on the components they are using and build the wheel. They should also be familiar with selecting components ie. spokes and washers.
Chris Thornham
FLO Cycling: http://www.flocycling.com
FLO Blog: http://bit.ly/b3Zlpq | Twitter: http://bit.ly/bOQ08x | Facebook: http://bit.ly/d8KDhI
Chris Thornham
Site Admin
 
Posts: 564
Joined: March 2nd, 2012, 3:35 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Technical questions - wheel build - rims

Postby Anastasios » February 22nd, 2017, 1:20 pm

Thanks a lot Chris looking forward receiving the rims.
Anastasios
 
Posts: 4
Joined: February 13th, 2017, 5:58 pm


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